It took me two days to get to writing a summary of Monday's group. We travel through so many things it's sort of hard to say exactly what we talked about. There seems to be a cycle developing; one week we have a topic and the next week we explore it further and move to the next topic. Last week was "Tithe" and this week started with whether or not there was blessings received in giving and curses in withholding. We were not sure where this idea came from even though we all know it's taught in many houses of worship.
We started with Matthew 25 again with the Sheep and the Goats. This passage certainly gives reason to speculate that there is a benefit to giving of ourselves. We discussed how this giving isn't really a tithe thing or money.
But I wanted to point out that money is something we should not be holding onto. It seems that every time someone says you should be giving up money people hold their wallets tight. I know there has been a corruption with preachers asking for money fraudulently, but we do also value money too highly.
I told a story of someone here at work going to a new church last week and how they were scared because they "have never heard anyone say" that "if you don't give everything you have to God you're going to hell." This wasn't received too well in the group although it isn't necessarily not true. The Rich Ruler was told to sell everything he had and give the money to the poor. This was an example of giving everything away. It was pointed out that this was because he was rich and it's easier for the poor to give everything because they don't have anything. It's important to be ready to have given everything up.
Some more examples were given of Elisha giving up everything and when Jesus was explaining the cost of following him.
And we discussed what it meant to really give up ourselves to God - what it meant to be converted. We see that Jesus said to count the cost, so discipleship demands something. We see that in America we just tell people to "try out" God and see how it works.
The discussion continued and moved to hell. Does Hell exist? We all sort of gave our own opinions on this and explained why. I'm not going to go into this because next Monday this will be the topic.
We moved to talking about doubt. We seem to have a lot of doubts, but also faith. We see throughout scripture from beginning to end that everyone is challenged by doubt, so it is not a bad thing, but it is a thing we all must deal with.
We ended asking "do you believe the Bible as it is bound now is the infallible word of God?" This will have to be dealt with in future gatherings to be complete, and it was Robert who just wanted to see how we should approach answering questions if not everyone believed the Bible was inerrant. We did agree that the "Sword of the Spirit" is not the Bible but rather it is "the Word of God" that is the Name of Christ Jesus, the Son of God. We didn't go through this topic but I think there was an overall understanding that anything touched by man had error, so the Bible as written by men contained errors. We actually had a time of searching exactly what "infallible" meant. We took out a dictionary and found three different definitions. I answered the first question posed in this paragraph with "No and yes," for there are mistakes made in the writing of the Scriptures (capable of error), but it is infallible in "defining doctrines touching faith or morals."
So next week we will be discussing Hell and punishment.
A few references to look up for next Monday are:
Tuesday, April 17, 2007
Thursday, April 12, 2007
What would Jesus really do?
There is a commentary on CNN.com that I think you should read called What would Jesus really do?
An excerpt:
An excerpt:
An African-American pastor I know in the Midwest was asked by a group of mostly white clergy to march in an anti-abortion rally. He was fine with that, but then asked the clergy if they would work with him to fight crack houses in predominantly black neighborhoods.
"That's really your problem," he was told.
They saw abortion as a moral imperative, but not a community ravaged by crack.
Tuesday, April 10, 2007
Thithes & offerings
Last night was a good group time. Some of us kept talking until about 23:00. Our topic was "tithe" and I'm sure everyone wants to know what we learned.
Churches often make a distinction between "tithe" and "offerings" saying the tithe is what you give to the local church and the offering is what you give above and beyond. This sounds somewhat legalistic, but it isn't.
Deuteronomy 14:22-29 is where the law spells out the tithe, and here is what it says (NIV):
But there is a caveat in the law:
So the tithe was given for a feast. This tithe was not given to a local church, it was not given to the temple, it was used for a feast to remember how God has blessed us through the year. But if we did this it too would be legalism.
But some people say that the tithe was not abolished from the law in the New Testament, but this is also not true. Acts 15:28-29 says:
So the tithe is not compulsory for the Christian. But what about principles from the Old Testament, don't they hold some weight in our lives? Yes. The most quoted text I can think of regarding giving is Malachi 3:8-10:
This passage is one showing an angry God. In verse 5 God says, "So I will come near to you for judgment ... against those who defraud laborers of their wages, who oppress the widows and the fatherless, and deprive aliens of justice, but do not fear me." Going back to Deut. 14 we learn that the "storehouse" is where the tithe of the third year goes "so that the Levites (who have no allotment or inheritance of their own) and the aliens, the fatherless and the widows who live in your towns may come and eat and be satisfied." (v. 29) It seems this tithes and offerings in Malachi God said was being robbed from Him was what went to sustain the alien, orphan and widow. This has a New Testament precedent in James 1:27:
But still, what do we make of the New Testament as it pertains to giving? It seems pretty clear in 2 Corinthians 9:7 that, "each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver."
There is only one place in the New Testament that directly references a tithe, and it is speaking of how Jesus is a High Priest in the order of Melchizedek (Hebrews 7), not about our own tithe. But Christ and the Apostles are clear that the Christian should give, and generously, out of joy and for the comfort of those in need. In fact, in the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats (Matthew 25:31-46), Jesus said that judgment would be coming to those that did not give, "I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink" - while there was glory for those that did give, "I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink."
So the Christian should give, but not out of compulsion. They should give to whom they decide, and there isn't a specific place or amount we are called to give.
Churches often make a distinction between "tithe" and "offerings" saying the tithe is what you give to the local church and the offering is what you give above and beyond. This sounds somewhat legalistic, but it isn't.
Deuteronomy 14:22-29 is where the law spells out the tithe, and here is what it says (NIV):
Eat the tithe of your grain, new wine and oil, and the firstborn of your herds and flocks in the presence of the LORD your God at the place he will choose as a dwelling for his Name, so that you may learn to revere the LORD your God always.
But there is a caveat in the law:
But if that place is too distant ... exchange your tithe for silver, and ... buy whatever you like: cattle, sheep, wine or other fermented drink, or anything you wish. Then you and your household shall eat there in the presence of the LORD your God and rejoice.
So the tithe was given for a feast. This tithe was not given to a local church, it was not given to the temple, it was used for a feast to remember how God has blessed us through the year. But if we did this it too would be legalism.
But some people say that the tithe was not abolished from the law in the New Testament, but this is also not true. Acts 15:28-29 says:
It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things.
So the tithe is not compulsory for the Christian. But what about principles from the Old Testament, don't they hold some weight in our lives? Yes. The most quoted text I can think of regarding giving is Malachi 3:8-10:
"Will a man rob God? Yet you rob me.
"But you ask, 'How do we rob you?'
"In tithes and offerings. You are under a curse—the whole nation of you—because you are robbing me. Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this," says the LORD Almighty, "and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that you will not have room enough for it.
This passage is one showing an angry God. In verse 5 God says, "So I will come near to you for judgment ... against those who defraud laborers of their wages, who oppress the widows and the fatherless, and deprive aliens of justice, but do not fear me." Going back to Deut. 14 we learn that the "storehouse" is where the tithe of the third year goes "so that the Levites (who have no allotment or inheritance of their own) and the aliens, the fatherless and the widows who live in your towns may come and eat and be satisfied." (v. 29) It seems this tithes and offerings in Malachi God said was being robbed from Him was what went to sustain the alien, orphan and widow. This has a New Testament precedent in James 1:27:
Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.
But still, what do we make of the New Testament as it pertains to giving? It seems pretty clear in 2 Corinthians 9:7 that, "each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver."
There is only one place in the New Testament that directly references a tithe, and it is speaking of how Jesus is a High Priest in the order of Melchizedek (Hebrews 7), not about our own tithe. But Christ and the Apostles are clear that the Christian should give, and generously, out of joy and for the comfort of those in need. In fact, in the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats (Matthew 25:31-46), Jesus said that judgment would be coming to those that did not give, "I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink" - while there was glory for those that did give, "I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink."
So the Christian should give, but not out of compulsion. They should give to whom they decide, and there isn't a specific place or amount we are called to give.
Tuesday, April 3, 2007
How to form community
Last night was pretty cool. David and I played his Wii for a while. I've played the Wii a few times and I'm really not impressed. It's really Gamecube 2.0 and the most entertaining part of it was just how terrible the games are. Caveat: I haven't played CoD3, Metroid, Red Steel or Zelda yet, but Wario Ware and Wii Sports are really awful. I was laughing just because it was so bad.
I made some rice pilaf and steamed veggies, but I totally burned the veggies. Nicole brought some chicken in from Costco because cooking something would have taken forever.
Jeff showed up and we ate and played more on the Wii.
Josh and Serena came and we did some Wii bowling while screwing around and talking. Robert came in and kicked me while I bowled.
For some reason we started talking about what our group is going to be, and I don't know what really happened after that. I just intended on hanging out and just getting the community going, especially since half the group wasn't there (they were playing music somewhere). I didn't want to decide on what the group would be when half the people didn't have a say. I don't think anything was decided, and I think if someone thinks something was decided they're probably wrong.
You see, it's hard to do something like this because we have conditioning. We don't know how to do this because we're so used to having this structure. It's comfortable, it's like when you knew what to wear to certain events, you even knew when it was going to begin based on what type of event it was. Things go in cycles. Every generation creates their own rules and the next generation breaks them - and then creates their own.
It is probably just me, but I have issues with the structures I'm so familiar with, no matter how comfortable, because I find it hinders intimacy instead of encouraging it. We get tied into achieving goals, not growing closer to each other. We're trying to accomplish something where in spirituality there isn't any accomplishment. You don't reach an end and that's it, you just change. But we need to change in the right way.
A plant grows in the direction of light. We need to be in the light to grow towards it. When we cover the light we are retarded, and we don't grow in any correct way. We don't need an artificial light either, we need genuine sunshine.
I'm not saying we don't need structure, I just think we need our own structure built from our community's needs, strengths and weaknesses. We can't use a prefabricated structure, we can't xerox blueprints, we have to build from nothing. We start with a foundation (Luke 6:48) and build on top of it (1 Corinthians 3:10-15).
When I was in Poland, Nicole and I were part of a workshop on creating organic fellowship. "Organic" is the key. It lives, it has its own life. It feeds on what makes it healthy and stays away from what is harmful. It grows. It feels pain. I have more to say on this next week when everyone is there.
The leader of the workshop used a picture of Peter walking on the water. The boat the Disciple was in was his safety in the storm. It wasn't fail safe, vessels do sink, but he had a much better chance of surviving the storm within the boat than without. But Peter left the boat and only while he was focused on Jesus. The boat was used as the picture of the church, and inside the boat was the known structure of the church. This isn't to say we need to leave the boat or that the boat is bad, but when you're in the boat you can lose your focus on Jesus and not sink. It takes faith the be out in the world, touching lives and getting dirty. We need to focus on the Savior.
I'm reading Blue Like Jazz right now (and I'm almost done). Don Miller has a chapter devoted to community. He says when you live together you get under each others' skin. We are called to share our lives together. We're called to love one another. We don't always like each other, but we are called to live with each other, share our lives in a vulnerable fashion, and love each other.
I'm usually good at taking a complex statement and putting it in one sentence, but this thing is way too complex to even explain clearly in several paragraphs. I think it's vague on purpose.
After we did all this talking, David, Jeff, Robert and I did some more talking for a while, we watched the Colbert Report, and then we sort of went to bed.
I read the next chapter in Blue Like Jazz before I went to bed. It was a chapter on tithing.
I made some rice pilaf and steamed veggies, but I totally burned the veggies. Nicole brought some chicken in from Costco because cooking something would have taken forever.
Jeff showed up and we ate and played more on the Wii.
Josh and Serena came and we did some Wii bowling while screwing around and talking. Robert came in and kicked me while I bowled.
For some reason we started talking about what our group is going to be, and I don't know what really happened after that. I just intended on hanging out and just getting the community going, especially since half the group wasn't there (they were playing music somewhere). I didn't want to decide on what the group would be when half the people didn't have a say. I don't think anything was decided, and I think if someone thinks something was decided they're probably wrong.
You see, it's hard to do something like this because we have conditioning. We don't know how to do this because we're so used to having this structure. It's comfortable, it's like when you knew what to wear to certain events, you even knew when it was going to begin based on what type of event it was. Things go in cycles. Every generation creates their own rules and the next generation breaks them - and then creates their own.
It is probably just me, but I have issues with the structures I'm so familiar with, no matter how comfortable, because I find it hinders intimacy instead of encouraging it. We get tied into achieving goals, not growing closer to each other. We're trying to accomplish something where in spirituality there isn't any accomplishment. You don't reach an end and that's it, you just change. But we need to change in the right way.
A plant grows in the direction of light. We need to be in the light to grow towards it. When we cover the light we are retarded, and we don't grow in any correct way. We don't need an artificial light either, we need genuine sunshine.
I'm not saying we don't need structure, I just think we need our own structure built from our community's needs, strengths and weaknesses. We can't use a prefabricated structure, we can't xerox blueprints, we have to build from nothing. We start with a foundation (Luke 6:48) and build on top of it (1 Corinthians 3:10-15).
When I was in Poland, Nicole and I were part of a workshop on creating organic fellowship. "Organic" is the key. It lives, it has its own life. It feeds on what makes it healthy and stays away from what is harmful. It grows. It feels pain. I have more to say on this next week when everyone is there.
The leader of the workshop used a picture of Peter walking on the water. The boat the Disciple was in was his safety in the storm. It wasn't fail safe, vessels do sink, but he had a much better chance of surviving the storm within the boat than without. But Peter left the boat and only while he was focused on Jesus. The boat was used as the picture of the church, and inside the boat was the known structure of the church. This isn't to say we need to leave the boat or that the boat is bad, but when you're in the boat you can lose your focus on Jesus and not sink. It takes faith the be out in the world, touching lives and getting dirty. We need to focus on the Savior.
I'm reading Blue Like Jazz right now (and I'm almost done). Don Miller has a chapter devoted to community. He says when you live together you get under each others' skin. We are called to share our lives together. We're called to love one another. We don't always like each other, but we are called to live with each other, share our lives in a vulnerable fashion, and love each other.
I'm usually good at taking a complex statement and putting it in one sentence, but this thing is way too complex to even explain clearly in several paragraphs. I think it's vague on purpose.
After we did all this talking, David, Jeff, Robert and I did some more talking for a while, we watched the Colbert Report, and then we sort of went to bed.
I read the next chapter in Blue Like Jazz before I went to bed. It was a chapter on tithing.
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